Adam's Horn Store and Display
Q: I'm interested in either your Benge 5X (if you still have it) or the King Silver Flair. Regarding the King, do you know if it is a .462 bore? Also, is the first valve trigger easily removed? And, if so, is there any evidence of it once it's gone? I've never been able to get comfortable with a trigger and I don't want the horn to look "funky" if I take it off. Thanks for your help.
A: Thank you for your email and your interest in the Benge or the King.
The bore on the Silver Flair is 0.462. I am with you on your dislike of first triggers. I can't play with them myself. It can be removed. What will be left is a spot of bare brass about 1/2" and width and 3/4" long on the inside of the first valve casing. I could take it off for you if you want me to. Or you could do it. You'd just need to get it hot enough for the solder joint to melt. Easy if you are familiar with soldering with a flame. Down the road you could spot polish it for aesthetics or do nothing depending on your taste or the shop could put it back on pretty easily.
The Benge is a very nice horn. It will feel brighter and more open than the silver flair.
You got me to thinking about a horn a while back where i removed the first valve trigger. I had an old picture that shows what it will look like.
The attached picture is not of the King, it is of an Olds Studio that I have long since sold. It is only to show you what the removed first trigger will look like. Look for the darker colored area on the 1st valve casing just above the first slide. The lighter color area near the top of the first valve casing where the silver is off had nothing to do with the removal of the trigger. That horn just had a lot of wear.
I hope this helps.
A: Thank you for your email and your interest in the Benge or the King.
The bore on the Silver Flair is 0.462. I am with you on your dislike of first triggers. I can't play with them myself. It can be removed. What will be left is a spot of bare brass about 1/2" and width and 3/4" long on the inside of the first valve casing. I could take it off for you if you want me to. Or you could do it. You'd just need to get it hot enough for the solder joint to melt. Easy if you are familiar with soldering with a flame. Down the road you could spot polish it for aesthetics or do nothing depending on your taste or the shop could put it back on pretty easily.
The Benge is a very nice horn. It will feel brighter and more open than the silver flair.
You got me to thinking about a horn a while back where i removed the first valve trigger. I had an old picture that shows what it will look like.
The attached picture is not of the King, it is of an Olds Studio that I have long since sold. It is only to show you what the removed first trigger will look like. Look for the darker colored area on the 1st valve casing just above the first slide. The lighter color area near the top of the first valve casing where the silver is off had nothing to do with the removal of the trigger. That horn just had a lot of wear.
I hope this helps.
Q: I have a 40 year old trumpet...it's a Mignon brand...the number on the middle valve casing is 562868...was it a good brand? I just had it returned to me after nearly 20 years...does not seem to work...the valve slides don't spring back to the top position when pressed etc...although it has no dents etc. I was thinking of getting it looked at by a repairer but wondered if it was a reputable brand. Thanks.
A: I have not heard of the brand Mignon. It was not a major brand at the time. At that time period it was very common for the few major makers to sell "stencil" horns to companies that would mark it with some other trade name. The high serial number suggests this is probably what your trumpet is.
I 'd be curious to see pictures. I might be able to tell you a little more about it that way and if it looks familiar I may be able to tell you who made it. There are several "stencil" horns out there that are very good; there are also several that are very bad.
A: I have not heard of the brand Mignon. It was not a major brand at the time. At that time period it was very common for the few major makers to sell "stencil" horns to companies that would mark it with some other trade name. The high serial number suggests this is probably what your trumpet is.
I 'd be curious to see pictures. I might be able to tell you a little more about it that way and if it looks familiar I may be able to tell you who made it. There are several "stencil" horns out there that are very good; there are also several that are very bad.
Q: Sir, I have been looking for a beginner trumpet. I want to learn how to play taps for our honored veterans. That means it has to look fairly good and play well. I realize that a lot of the music quality will be from me & my experience (or lack there of). Therefore, the horn has to play well and then I can learn to play it well. As you know, a bad horn would not be a big help to me! I live in [redacted], I am 52 years old and am going back to college to earn a degree at [redacted], You seem to have a fair amount of experience with horns. I was hoping you could steer me to a good horn for my purposes. Thanks in advance for your reply.
A: I am very happy to help. Since you are interested in playing taps, the history of the trumpet might be of interest. Taps was originally written for a bugle, which as you probably know is a trumpet but without any keys. The note choices on a bugle were limited to those within a certain chord, so to play in a different key you literally had to have a different bugle that was a different length. Then the "keyed bugle" came along, which we know today as the trumpet. This allowed the player to play in any number of keys and chord-series, depending on which button combination was pressed. In fact, the trumpet allows for taps to be played in 7 different keys! This was a big deal way back when!
Sorry sometimes I go into to much detail. Anyhow, I have a number of beginner trumpets that play well. Everything I sell plays well, and is serviced and ready to go. Three trumpets come to mind that I think would work well for you.
1958 Selmer Bundy ($175): This one i have pictures of on my website. It plays really well and the valves especially feel good. This horn plays like only the very best student horns of today play. The downside is that the lacquer is not good. This is a cosmetic issue only but might be a consideration depending on where you are playing.
1990s Conn 22b ($200): This is a newer horn that also plays well. I like the way the Selmer plays better, but this one is still very good. You might "grow out of it" in a few years, somewhat sooner than the Selmer. The positive is that this horn looks very good and has no dents.
Restored Holton 602 ($450): This horn is the best of both worlds. The horn was built in the golden days of american made trumpets and i have had it fixed up beyond its original spec. Brand new silver plate, everything fixed like new. Of course, it is quite a bit more expensive but you are essentially getting a new horn.
A: I am very happy to help. Since you are interested in playing taps, the history of the trumpet might be of interest. Taps was originally written for a bugle, which as you probably know is a trumpet but without any keys. The note choices on a bugle were limited to those within a certain chord, so to play in a different key you literally had to have a different bugle that was a different length. Then the "keyed bugle" came along, which we know today as the trumpet. This allowed the player to play in any number of keys and chord-series, depending on which button combination was pressed. In fact, the trumpet allows for taps to be played in 7 different keys! This was a big deal way back when!
Sorry sometimes I go into to much detail. Anyhow, I have a number of beginner trumpets that play well. Everything I sell plays well, and is serviced and ready to go. Three trumpets come to mind that I think would work well for you.
1958 Selmer Bundy ($175): This one i have pictures of on my website. It plays really well and the valves especially feel good. This horn plays like only the very best student horns of today play. The downside is that the lacquer is not good. This is a cosmetic issue only but might be a consideration depending on where you are playing.
1990s Conn 22b ($200): This is a newer horn that also plays well. I like the way the Selmer plays better, but this one is still very good. You might "grow out of it" in a few years, somewhat sooner than the Selmer. The positive is that this horn looks very good and has no dents.
Restored Holton 602 ($450): This horn is the best of both worlds. The horn was built in the golden days of american made trumpets and i have had it fixed up beyond its original spec. Brand new silver plate, everything fixed like new. Of course, it is quite a bit more expensive but you are essentially getting a new horn.
Dear Mr. Adam,
With great interest I read your Beginner Trumpet Guide – thank you so much for writing it! In the end you gave your email address for any questions, so I decided to write. I am looking for a decent trumpet for my 10 year old son who will be playing in the middle school band next year, and I know NOTHING about trumpets. The school wants us to rent one to begin with but I am convinced that I can save money by buying a used trumpet. However, it needs to be of good quality so that my son does not get frustrated while practicing – and the band director will stay happy.
A local person is selling a Holton Brass Trumpet (T602USD - TRS, serial 899239 with a Bach 5B mouth piece, she said), and I found no mention about this brand in your guide. Are they not good ones in your opinion?
--
Thank you for the message. I am glad you found my guide useful. It is nice to know people read it. The Holton T602 is actually a very nice horn. The best ones are from the 50s to the early 70s. It was basically an oversight not to include it in the guide. The one you mention is later after Holton was bought out by a bigger music conglomerate. It is still a nice horn though and if the condition is good it will work very well for your son for many many years.
If it is in good shape it is probably worth around $250 give or take depending on condition. Make sure to go through the tests I mention on that web page so you know everything is working right.
It is interesting that it has a Bach 5B mouthpiece. That is a fairly unusual mouthpiece but is quite good and will lead to strong embouchure development for your son. The band director may put him on something else, but the 5B should work fine in my opinion.
I don't know what the school charges for rentals, but usually you can buy used and then if he loses interest sell it and not take much of a loss.
I think the local Holton you found will work out but in case it doesn't, I have been restoring and selling beginner trumpets more and more. What I have right now would range from about $150 for a functional but cosmetically troubled horn to $400 for a fully restored horn in silver plate. I can give you more details if you would like.
Take care
Adam
--
Thank you so much for your response and opinion, Adam! Your guide is the best thing I have read so far in my search for a horn.
In the mean time my husband came across another one, a nickel King trumpet with the serial number 413164 and a Vincent Bach mouthpiece 1 ½ C. The seller says that the slides and valves are in perfect working order but it is a vintage horn and therefore not blemish free. He said that there are scratches at the top pieces where your hands rest to use the valves and to hold the horn.
If it were your son, which one would you buy, if I may ask? The price is about the same on both.
This is such a difficult thing for me because I have never even held a trumpet, not to talk about playing one, so I REALLY value your help! If neither of these horns work for us, I will definitely keep your “shop” in mind.
--
I am having trouble remembering which king model was in nickel plate. I believe it was the liberty. But anyhow, I think that if it were my son I would go for the Holton. The King will be a nice horn but nickel changes the sound in a particular way and makes it more dense and less bright and I think it is good for the young player to get the feel of a horn in silver or lacquer. I would also trust the valves on the newer holton to be in better condition. The cosmetic issues the seller of the king mentions aren't anything to worry about.
Good luck! You are doing the right thing by checking out some nice used horns.
Adam
--
Thank you, again! Your input has been greatly valued.
--
You have already been so helpful and I hate to bother you again but IF you have time, please let me know what you would think about a Kanstul 610 with 7c mouthpiece. It has the number 20960 written on it (maybe a serial number). I have read only positive things about Kanstuls but you did not mention 610 in your article. This is the same price as the Holton – which, unfortunately, go snatched by someone else.
--
buy it buy it now!
i don't mention kanstul because they dont come up for sale often and when they do they are more expensive than a few hundred dollars usually.
kanstuls are still hand made in the USA and are one of the few brands that haven't been gobbled up by a bigger company where the horns are made in a factory with little care.
if the slides pull and the valves move and it looks decent, buy it. it is the best horn of those you have found so far. it is worth upwards of $400
adam
--
Hello Adam,
I just wanted to tell you that I bought the Kanstul - or, actually, my in-laws bought it for me because it was sold near where they live. I sent your instructions to them but they never went through all the checks because my father-in-law said the horn looked pristine. It had two tiny dings that the seller had to point out to them, hardly any scratches, and the valves and slides all worked fine according to him (he does not know trumpets but he used to play saxophone). Naturally I am a little worried because they did not do all the checks I asked them to do but I hope everything is fine. The seller had told me that he had it serviced and the service person said all is well, so I certainly hope that is the truth.
In any case, according to my in-laws both the horn and the case look beautiful, so in the worst case scenario I paid $125 for a storage case and a pretty trumpet that does not work but we can use as decoration. ;-)
Thank you again for everything. Your advise has been priceless.
--
wow i can't believe you got that trumpet for $125. i think it is fine, don't worry. it is a newer trumpet and if it looks good it probably is fine, especially if the valves and slides were all fine. many of my checks are more applicable to horns that are 30 + years old, horns that have been stored or in closets for years can exhibit all sorts of strange things.
sometimes when people who don't know trumpets take them apart and put them back together they put the valves in wrong. so if air doesn't pass through the horn (like blowing into a brick wall) it just means the valves need rotated.
let me know how it works when you get it. i think you got a FANTASTIC deal
adam
--
It will take a little while (a few weeks, maybe) before we get a chance to visit my in-laws but I will let you know what I think about the trumpet when we get it. We are so excited! I figured it was a pretty decent deal, if the horn works. The Kanstul people told me it was made in March 2001, and a local repair man I found through the Kanstul website assured me that he has never had any problems getting Kanstuls fixed if they have had some problems. Therefore I am pretty hopeful that even if it has some problems they can be fixed, and I will still get my money’s worth. But I will keep you posted!
In the mean time, have a great weekend and a happy start to May!
With great interest I read your Beginner Trumpet Guide – thank you so much for writing it! In the end you gave your email address for any questions, so I decided to write. I am looking for a decent trumpet for my 10 year old son who will be playing in the middle school band next year, and I know NOTHING about trumpets. The school wants us to rent one to begin with but I am convinced that I can save money by buying a used trumpet. However, it needs to be of good quality so that my son does not get frustrated while practicing – and the band director will stay happy.
A local person is selling a Holton Brass Trumpet (T602USD - TRS, serial 899239 with a Bach 5B mouth piece, she said), and I found no mention about this brand in your guide. Are they not good ones in your opinion?
--
Thank you for the message. I am glad you found my guide useful. It is nice to know people read it. The Holton T602 is actually a very nice horn. The best ones are from the 50s to the early 70s. It was basically an oversight not to include it in the guide. The one you mention is later after Holton was bought out by a bigger music conglomerate. It is still a nice horn though and if the condition is good it will work very well for your son for many many years.
If it is in good shape it is probably worth around $250 give or take depending on condition. Make sure to go through the tests I mention on that web page so you know everything is working right.
It is interesting that it has a Bach 5B mouthpiece. That is a fairly unusual mouthpiece but is quite good and will lead to strong embouchure development for your son. The band director may put him on something else, but the 5B should work fine in my opinion.
I don't know what the school charges for rentals, but usually you can buy used and then if he loses interest sell it and not take much of a loss.
I think the local Holton you found will work out but in case it doesn't, I have been restoring and selling beginner trumpets more and more. What I have right now would range from about $150 for a functional but cosmetically troubled horn to $400 for a fully restored horn in silver plate. I can give you more details if you would like.
Take care
Adam
--
Thank you so much for your response and opinion, Adam! Your guide is the best thing I have read so far in my search for a horn.
In the mean time my husband came across another one, a nickel King trumpet with the serial number 413164 and a Vincent Bach mouthpiece 1 ½ C. The seller says that the slides and valves are in perfect working order but it is a vintage horn and therefore not blemish free. He said that there are scratches at the top pieces where your hands rest to use the valves and to hold the horn.
If it were your son, which one would you buy, if I may ask? The price is about the same on both.
This is such a difficult thing for me because I have never even held a trumpet, not to talk about playing one, so I REALLY value your help! If neither of these horns work for us, I will definitely keep your “shop” in mind.
--
I am having trouble remembering which king model was in nickel plate. I believe it was the liberty. But anyhow, I think that if it were my son I would go for the Holton. The King will be a nice horn but nickel changes the sound in a particular way and makes it more dense and less bright and I think it is good for the young player to get the feel of a horn in silver or lacquer. I would also trust the valves on the newer holton to be in better condition. The cosmetic issues the seller of the king mentions aren't anything to worry about.
Good luck! You are doing the right thing by checking out some nice used horns.
Adam
--
Thank you, again! Your input has been greatly valued.
--
You have already been so helpful and I hate to bother you again but IF you have time, please let me know what you would think about a Kanstul 610 with 7c mouthpiece. It has the number 20960 written on it (maybe a serial number). I have read only positive things about Kanstuls but you did not mention 610 in your article. This is the same price as the Holton – which, unfortunately, go snatched by someone else.
--
buy it buy it now!
i don't mention kanstul because they dont come up for sale often and when they do they are more expensive than a few hundred dollars usually.
kanstuls are still hand made in the USA and are one of the few brands that haven't been gobbled up by a bigger company where the horns are made in a factory with little care.
if the slides pull and the valves move and it looks decent, buy it. it is the best horn of those you have found so far. it is worth upwards of $400
adam
--
Hello Adam,
I just wanted to tell you that I bought the Kanstul - or, actually, my in-laws bought it for me because it was sold near where they live. I sent your instructions to them but they never went through all the checks because my father-in-law said the horn looked pristine. It had two tiny dings that the seller had to point out to them, hardly any scratches, and the valves and slides all worked fine according to him (he does not know trumpets but he used to play saxophone). Naturally I am a little worried because they did not do all the checks I asked them to do but I hope everything is fine. The seller had told me that he had it serviced and the service person said all is well, so I certainly hope that is the truth.
In any case, according to my in-laws both the horn and the case look beautiful, so in the worst case scenario I paid $125 for a storage case and a pretty trumpet that does not work but we can use as decoration. ;-)
Thank you again for everything. Your advise has been priceless.
--
wow i can't believe you got that trumpet for $125. i think it is fine, don't worry. it is a newer trumpet and if it looks good it probably is fine, especially if the valves and slides were all fine. many of my checks are more applicable to horns that are 30 + years old, horns that have been stored or in closets for years can exhibit all sorts of strange things.
sometimes when people who don't know trumpets take them apart and put them back together they put the valves in wrong. so if air doesn't pass through the horn (like blowing into a brick wall) it just means the valves need rotated.
let me know how it works when you get it. i think you got a FANTASTIC deal
adam
--
It will take a little while (a few weeks, maybe) before we get a chance to visit my in-laws but I will let you know what I think about the trumpet when we get it. We are so excited! I figured it was a pretty decent deal, if the horn works. The Kanstul people told me it was made in March 2001, and a local repair man I found through the Kanstul website assured me that he has never had any problems getting Kanstuls fixed if they have had some problems. Therefore I am pretty hopeful that even if it has some problems they can be fixed, and I will still get my money’s worth. But I will keep you posted!
In the mean time, have a great weekend and a happy start to May!
